DEEP DIVE: Traveling as a Family

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Margaret Apolls (0:28): The minute I show my passport, I have to hand it back to him. Like, I'm not allowed to handle my own documents, my own boarding pass because I can't be trusted. What fresh hell. Laughing in the face of motherhood.

Amy Wilson (0:39): We make it even more complicated by introducing kids into the mix. With Margaret Apolls. And Amy Wilson.

Margaret Apolls (0:47): Yeah. Like, we couldn't even stop for lunch. You can't even go in a restaurant without shoes on.

Amy Wilson (0:51): A podcast that solves today's parenting dilemmas so you don't have to. You can overplan for kids too thinking that kids need to be kept busy.

Margaret Apolls (1:03): Hello, everyone, and welcome to What Fresh Hell laughing in the face of motherhood. This is Margaret.

Amy Wilson (1:08): And this is Amy. Today, we're talking about traveling as a family and how not to kill each other and how to make it as peaceful as possible.

Unknown Speaker (1:18): Traveling as a family if you must, as we like to say. Right. I think you must.

Amy Wilson (1:23): It's all I talk about when I bump into people these days. Oh, what are you doing this summer? Right? You know, like, you're doing this. You're doing this.

Amy Wilson (1:28): You do intend to have fun. These seem like good ideas when you put them on the calendar. You're making memories, and then you have to go to the airport, and it doesn't feel so great.

Margaret Apolls (1:37): Yeah. Traveling is definitely one of those things where you're like, was this a good idea? I feel like I definitely wanna travel when I think about traveling. I'm like, I could spend my life someone I know went on a Viking cruise, and we got the brochure. Like, I just stole it from them to look at all these cruises, and one of them is, like, a one hundred and ninety eight day cruise that goes from, I don't know, like, London to LA.

Margaret Apolls (2:02): It's basically the entire world, and you go all around and visit basically every country. And I was like, I definitely wanna do that. And then I definitely don't wanna do that. Like, I know that I don't wanna do that, but it does seem appealing when I look at it in a book.

Amy Wilson (2:16): I mean, it's definitely your mileage may vary. My dad was my dad visited every continent at 63 countries. I mean, he

Margaret Apolls (2:23): just Yeah. He was a traveling man.

Amy Wilson (2:25): He was in it, and I definitely have that. Like, I love to travel. And my mom also visited many continents and countries and did it, didn't always go, and I would say indulge and enjoyed his travel bug without actually fully having it herself.

Margaret Apolls (2:41): Yeah. I think I like the idea of travel. Once they invent teleportation, I will be the world's biggest traveler, but traveling is hard on me physically. I really do not agree with travel. I started to realize recently, basically, every time I take a plane, I have to take a day off.

Margaret Apolls (3:00): Like, I'm sick the next day. I throw up on planes. I get sick in cars. I just I have motion sickness, and I've tried the bands and the Dramamine, and you don't even need to come at me with suggestions. But I still do it, but I find traveling really hard.

Amy Wilson (3:16): I think I found a really good tip for this because it is. Traveling is hard. There's the traveling, and there's the being there. And the getting there can be so hard that it contaminates the being there, I think. And so it's about sort of separating those out.

Amy Wilson (3:32): You know what? I'm just gonna jump in. I'm gonna jump in with this tip because it's so good, I thought. Brent and Michael are going places. It's a substack.

Amy Wilson (3:39): Two guys married who travel the world together have done much traveling, and they have come up with this plan. They say the most stressful days are the ones when you're traveling between destinations because travel related stresses seep in, and here come the sharp words and bitchy rejoinders. At this point, having failed to being higher beings, we switch to plan b, which is something we, this is Brent and Michael, call no fault travel days. This is just what it sounds like. If one of us acts like a donkey on a travel day, it doesn't matter.

Amy Wilson (4:13): On no fault travel days, apologies are nice, but they're not necessarily expected. No grudges are held, and the ledger is wiped entirely clean at the end of the day. That emphasis is for me to take home. No grudges are held. Ledger from the no fall travel day is wiped clean, so you start at zero when you get there.

Amy Wilson (4:31): No fall travel days, they say, are about getting to the end of the no fall travel day, at which point every stressful, horrible thing that happened is memory hold and never mentioned again.

Margaret Apolls (4:42): I like the concept. I've often been and people quote back to me often, sky rules. So, like, whenever you're on a plane, the kids can eat whatever snacks they want, have eight sodas. They can watch whatever they want on TV. There's basically no rules in the sky.

Margaret Apolls (4:59): You just prioritize your own happiness, and whatever goes goes. This idea, I like, but I am not the greatest at letting thing go. So I think I would aim more towards, like, a same team reminder that especially when you're traveling with kids, I don't actually wanna get there having fought all day. It's not appealing to me. Well, this is

Amy Wilson (5:22): I think this is saying this is how you don't fight all day. And you're hearing, go ahead and fight, it doesn't matter because you'll just memory hole it when you get there.

Margaret Apolls (5:29): Well, I mean, he is saying, like, sharp words, and then you erase them. I think for me, it works better to be like, let's commit as we're about to travel through that you're in charge of this, and I'm in charge of that, and we're not gonna get

Amy Wilson (5:42): to sharp words. Well, there this is so you don't get to sharp words. This is saying to avoid sharp words, we have a plan b, which is something called no fault travel days that you're just getting there. You're doing your best.

Margaret Apolls (5:55): I see. So it's not I thought the point was to say whatever anyone says or does, it doesn't count, which I pretty much agree with. But it says if one of us acts like a jerk on travel day, it doesn't matter. I think I need it to be a little bit more here's how we're not gonna act like jerks. You play your zone.

Margaret Apolls (6:13): I play my zone. And, yes, it's frustrating, but we stay on the same team in some way. I don't have a huge ability to get there and be like, I'm gonna forget the way you spoke to me in the TSA line. Well, me neither. But it was what

Amy Wilson (6:26): we were just saying about, like, the joy of being there if you're really mad that your spouse snapped at you in the TSA pre line. You know what I'm saying? You gotta let it go because traveling is stressful. You're stressed. I'm stressed.

Amy Wilson (6:38): We're stressed. Same team, as you say. And then we get there, and there's a a clean slate. I have another tip in this way that actually really just worked for me recently. It can be very stressful for me and my spouse when we travel, like traveling.

Amy Wilson (6:55): And it isn't just the boarding pass stuff. It's something about being there that was stressful, and it would be a cause of conflict. And I wasn't even sure why, but we had a conversation where I tried to come into it with real curiosity, like, something happens when we travel that we end up, like, upset at each other. I'm not even sure what's happening, and we really, like, dug down. What's the source of stress?

Amy Wilson (7:18): What's the source of stress? And the source of stress we discovered was when we have to go find somewhere to eat with the hungry teenagers or sometimes the grandparents who really need to sit down because it's hot, you know, that kind of thing. Finding somewhere to eat for this group of people who are already hungry is the source of stress. That's what we end up fighting about and being resentful about for three days. If that's what it is, then fix it.

Amy Wilson (7:47): So now we know that's what's really stressful. You like to eat certain things and not certain things. You don't like to get too hungry, and it's a disaster when it's 01:30 and we need to eat lunch right now, and you don't wanna go to Panera. So let's not do it that way. That's fixable.

Amy Wilson (8:02): So, okay, we need restaurant reservations. We need for the person who cares the most about where we're gonna eat lunch to go on Google while we're still at breakfast and figure out where and when lunch is gonna be and make a reservation. That's fixable. It isn't like we fight when we travel. It's we need to plan meals ahead of time so that nobody gets too hungry.

Amy Wilson (8:19): And having this sort of difficult family meeting conversation about, let's get specific about what's the source of stress means, I hope, on these next vacations we have planned, that we're trying to get more intentional about let's not get to that point.

Margaret Apolls (8:32): Yeah. That makes sense and it's smart. Let's not get to the point where yeah. I'm extremely food oriented, and so I am the food planner for all of our vacations, and that's not a problem for me because I don't go until I have every single meal plan to attain.

Unknown Speaker (8:49): It's true. When I travel with you, you usually know what we're doing for meals now that I think about it.

Margaret Apolls (8:53): I'm very meal oriented because I also don't like to go places and eat at Panera. That's a big thing for me. If we're in Nashville alright. I'm gonna look up the six most famous places and figure out when we're going to each one of them. Like, I'm very oriented towards trying the food in a place.

Margaret Apolls (9:09): That's a big part of traveling for me. And as our kids although we did it when they were starting when they were, 10, 12, and 14, we would get them a pizza in a hotel and go eat places. Like, I don't wanna bring my kids to places that are expensive and that they don't care about the food. So we would leave them behind in the hotel with a pizza and then go get what we wanted.

Amy Wilson (9:29): It can be hard. And, like, sometimes it's the Detroit Airport, and there's a pizza place, and that's what there is. But even then, you can look. I had a long layover in the Des Moines Airport recently, which is very perfectly nice, small, being renovated airport with, you know, limited options. And this is actually before security because that's how old the airport is, that kind of thing, and a little plan ahead.

Amy Wilson (9:50): This, for whatever reason, is the thing that people really care about. Or one of you in your relationship might really care about checking bags or not checking bags or getting to the airport super early. And I guess I feel like the old Nick North number system, if somebody really cares about having something healthy to eat before they get on the plane, then they get to have that, but that might involve bringing a salad with you or them doing research or allowing extra time.

Margaret Apolls (10:18): Right. Or you figuring it out is where now I see those, like, farmers' fridges or something. It's some sort of to go salad. Yeah. That is completely uninteresting to me to the point where I'm very dismissive of it.

Margaret Apolls (10:30): I'm like, of course, we're gonna eat Sbarro ziti, which does it taste like plastic burnt twigs? Yes. But it's because we're at the airport. That's what we eat at the airport. So why would that bother you?

Margaret Apolls (10:41): That's not interesting to me at all.

Amy Wilson (10:42): I'm kind of Sky Rules. I mean, I have fully adopted Sky Rules. I'm all about peanut M and M's and Coke on the plane. Like, you know, I'm like, this is a special I'm like a kid. I want yummy snacks when I travel, and I'm not worried if I've had enough protein.

Amy Wilson (10:57): But I know some other people who do care.

Margaret Apolls (10:59): My husband and I are wildly compatible travelers. Like, I never have problem. My husband and I could travel the world. We could do amazing race. Like, we travel very, very well together.

Margaret Apolls (11:09): I don't even recognize a category of, like, figuring out how to travel with your spouse because we just are easy, breezy travelers. He's very laid back, and I'm pretty laid back. And we're very let's see where the day takes us. We're just happy to lay around, happy to find cool things. We travel extremely well together.

Margaret Apolls (11:29): My problem comes in when other people get involved. If I could just travel with my spouse, I would be have no problems at all.

Amy Wilson (11:36): I think if two of it really matters, Mandy Statmuller wrote an article for the cut and doesn't have kids. This is about traveling with your partner. And she talked about it in this article. I'll link to it in the show notes about how she really is. She is the crazy person.

Amy Wilson (11:50): Like, I need to get to the airport super early, and I need to know, like, where my ambient is, and I need to do this, and I need to know she needs to have it a certain way that if you can, again, present it ahead of time, not when you're twenty minutes late and you haven't gotten in the taxi yet, and you're the cuckoo. Right? You're the one this I have this crazy thing. Right? If you could present it that way, I have this crazy thing.

Amy Wilson (12:11): I really can't relax until all of us, the kids, everybody are through security, and I really just have this thing. And so if we could allow a little extra time so that I can take a deep breath once we get the three year old in the stroller and everything through security, cuckoo me, that would really be helpful. And I think that's worth it. It's worth being like, I don't know why I'm so weird. Can we do this?

Margaret Apolls (12:34): I think that it's worth noting that there's a tremendous amount of underlying anxiety, period, in traveling. It's just nerve racking. Even in a car, I had to drive this weekend to an event that I was really looking forward to, and I was like, how could I possibly do this? Like, how could I possibly put items in a bag, put it in my car, drive five hours, and go to something? That seems impossible.

Margaret Apolls (12:58): And I do notoriously, you've traveled with me enough to know. I forget something every time. This time I forgot my shoes, had to buy a pair at DSW, had to make a stop. Wait. You because you were

Amy Wilson (13:07): wearing sneakers? Like, you had shoes on, but they just were not

Margaret Apolls (13:10): Yeah. I was wearing sneakers, and I got there, and I needed, like, an outfit, and I didn't wanna wear sneakers. And so, yeah, I just had to stop and buy a pair of $12 flats. It was fine. But, yeah, I do find that it's scary driving on long trips and being away from your home and flying in an airplane or getting on a boat.

Margaret Apolls (13:28): They're scary. They're fundamentally scary activities, and so your need to know where everything is in your purse so that you can reach for your Ambien if you're having trouble sleeping. Like, it's just a manifestation of nerves. And so acknowledging that is even helpful because my husband is constantly traveling. He, like is like, I gotta go to Dubai for three days for work.

Margaret Apolls (13:51): It's just something I find crazy. Like, how could you possibly do that? He doesn't feel those nerves around traveling, And so sometimes I have to be like, I just get nervous. I don't know why. It's not justifiable.

Margaret Apolls (14:03): It just makes me nervous to have to do things that are big.

Amy Wilson (14:06): Yeah. Well and then we make it even more complicated by introducing kids into the mix. So let's take a break. When we come back, we'll talk about getting stressed when we're traveling with our partner and our children. After an afternoon at the pool, my mom's skin needs a hydration reset.

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Margaret Apolls (17:24): Alright, Amy. It's time to level up. We're adding kids to the mix. This is where I enter the conversation. Like, me and my husband going somewhere, I'm good.

Amy Wilson (17:32): And it's team mom too because you were saying, like, maybe you're the kind of person that wants to have everything just where you want it in the bag. Well, yes, I am. And that is because even at my kids' advanced ages, I'm the keeper of the meds. I'm the keeper of the passports, and I'm the keeper of the headphones like these that plug into the jack on the airplane because my kids are like, mom, why are you such a loser with your wired headphones? You should use AirPods like we do.

Amy Wilson (17:57): And then they get on the

Unknown Speaker (17:58): plane and they're like, these don't work.

Unknown Speaker (17:59): Mom, do you have any headphones? Do have any headphones for me, mom?

Unknown Speaker (18:01): Hey, loser.

Amy Wilson (18:02): And I do. I do because I'm that kind of a traveler, but then don't come at me for being like mom with the enormous carry on. Like, that's right. And I also have your medicine and your headphones. So it is more stressful for the person who is doing the default packer.

Margaret Apolls (18:16): Correct. That person is my husband. I wouldn't know. So

Amy Wilson (18:19): Really? So you and then your family, your husband

Margaret Apolls (18:21): Does all the packing, is the keeper of all the things.

Amy Wilson (18:24): He does all the pack. You pack yourself, and he packs himself and the kids.

Margaret Apolls (18:27): Well, now my kids pack themselves. So but, yeah, when my kids were young, he he's always been the packer. He's the packer. He's an engineer. He likes putting stuff just so.

Margaret Apolls (18:36): He, like, is extremely good at getting millions of things into three small suitcases. I like doing that too.

Amy Wilson (18:42): I am very much a carry on person. Again, like, my kids are older. But even when my kids were, like, six, eight, and 10, we were carry on only family because I didn't wanna deal with not having stuff, and I also didn't wanna deal with, like, that extra standing around for twenty five minutes when you finally get there. Yeah. But it involves lots of rolling and tucking, but it is a strength of mine.

Margaret Apolls (19:00): That's the thing. I think my husband's very satisfied by doing that. We are a checking bags family. Always have been. Always will be.

Margaret Apolls (19:11): I am a bag checker. I don't I can't get it all in a carry on. I'm a very disorganized packer, so I just have a giant bag. Have you ever gotten the short end of the checked luggage stick? Like a lost bag?

Unknown Speaker (19:21): Yeah. Like, where's my bag? I don't know to go.

Margaret Apolls (19:22): For sure. We just went to Aruba on our first Us only vacation in years, and my bags did not arrive. So I just walked around in my husband's T shirt and boxers, and then the next day my bags came. I mean, I put my medication, the stuff I really need. But, yeah, it's definitely happened, but I hate lugging a bag around.

Margaret Apolls (19:43): I just I'm so happy to get rid of my bag.

Amy Wilson (19:45): And I'm such a insane carry on pack. I have the hugest carry on. I could put the link in the show notes. It's, oh, I forget. It's something I saw on Instagram, but it really is great with a million, like, pockets and things for everybody's stuff that I'm holding.

Amy Wilson (19:57): Or even when I travel by myself, I have my charger, my other kind of charger, and whatever. It's big, but it, like, sort of barely fits under the seat. It is regulation, so it will always fit under the seat, but it's the biggest size that will fit under the seat. And it's so heavy that I don't wanna check a bag because I wanna it has one of those sleeves that attaches onto the handle. And so I'm actually happier wheeling my wheelie bag to the airport because the bag is heavy because I'm carrying everything the whole world might need.

Margaret Apolls (20:23): So my husband is a golfer, and so he brings golf clubs. So, like, once you've got golf clubs, you're like, we're checking everything. So and I got a kid who likes fishing. He's bringing a fishing rod. I mean, we've already got so much stuff going on.

Margaret Apolls (20:36): We just accept our fate.

Amy Wilson (20:37): Here's something that really helps me that I've learned along the way that everybody gets their own boarding passes because this is something that's new in the age of the phone. Either my husband or I will have everybody's boarding passes on the phone. I tend to print them out too if I have time because you just never know when somebody's phone is gonna die or it's not working or, like, in my case, there's one person in my family. See if you can guess who it is. It's when they say that we're about to begin boarding.

Amy Wilson (21:04): You know what I mean? There's that pre pre boarding thing in the air, and people are starting to move towards that's about when a certain somebody in my family will say they need to go do something and will disappear into their time to

Unknown Speaker (21:15): get a cup of coffee.

Unknown Speaker (21:16): No. Well, it's usually the restroom area

Unknown Speaker (21:18): of the airport. We couldn't take as long

Amy Wilson (21:19): as it takes. Heaven knows. You know? And we gotta get that taken care of for sure, but now we're boarding. Now it's like group three, group four, and the person who has our boarding passes is and adding to the stress because I'm the one who has to not check bags.

Amy Wilson (21:32): Like, we need to get on the plane when we're allowed to get on the plane and exactly at that moment because of all these bags.

Margaret Apolls (21:36): That's what I like about not believe me. I favor the airlines that are not charging for bags because it is annoying when they suddenly wanna charge $200 to take your bags.

Unknown Speaker (21:45): Right.

Margaret Apolls (21:45): Right. But, yeah, I like not having the stress about what if there's no bin space.

Amy Wilson (21:50): I see where you're going. So, anyway, we all have our own boarding passes because there is somebody in my family who likes to play it that way. And even when the kids were little, I'd be like, see you later. And I would get on with all the kids.

Margaret Apolls (22:02): But you would get on without your spouse? They have a

Amy Wilson (22:05): boarding pass, and they're a grown up. So hope you make the flight. Because it was easier for me than, like, now it's like now it's final boarding call. We need all and, like and this person isn't there. Yeah.

Amy Wilson (22:15): I get on.

Margaret Apolls (22:15): I would be too worried. We get on together. I I would be like, you're gonna miss flight or not. They will. Yeah.

Margaret Apolls (22:21): Maybe they will. I just don't wanna I mean, now I don't care. Now my kids fly by themselves. My kids are now 13, 15, 16. They do everything by themselves.

Margaret Apolls (22:31): They fly by themselves. They pack themselves. I have basically no involvement in them, but we still get on the plane at the same time. I like to know all the chicks are together.

Amy Wilson (22:40): Right. Well, yeah, I have my chicks. That's just what it was. Like, one too many stressful times. Like, everybody has their own thing, and then if somebody needs to know what they need to do,

Margaret Apolls (22:48): good luck. Good luck, everybody. No. I am the mindy when we travel. My husband, we call him my body man.

Margaret Apolls (22:54): Like, the president has a body man who just travels with him and, like, holds his notebooks and stuff. That's my husband. The minute I show my passport, I have to hand it back to him. I'm not allowed to handle my own documents, my own boarding pass because I can't be trusted.

Amy Wilson (23:07): I think that's good. Like, you guys have a system. It's like everybody has their own boarding pass, then if you need to go do something and get on at the last second because that makes you feel better than getting on.

Margaret Apolls (23:16): They would lose me. I would, like, forget to get on the plane and be, like, wandering around the Sbarro eating bad ziti. Like, they know. They're like, mom needs constant minding. Let's go to our listeners.

Margaret Apolls (23:27): So we went to

Amy Wilson (23:27): our Facebook group, facebook.com/groups/whatfreshhellcast, and we asked our listeners to tell us what are the things you do to make things easier or simpler or less stressful when you travel. Like, how do you work it down? And we have a bunch of categories. So let's start with packing. Laura says she packs her kids' clothes by day, not person, in packing cubes.

Amy Wilson (23:51): So it's like, I got it. Like, Carla's Monday clothes. I love packing cubes, and I'm trying to get my kids to do their own packing at this point. I am so teen packing cubes now that I've gotten to use them because you can fit more. See, I'm the carry on at all cost person.

Amy Wilson (24:04): You can fit more because it's like all your underwear and socks goes in a packing cube, and then it becomes smaller because you can zip it shut. And then when you get to the hotel, it's like, here's the socks and underwear bag. Here's the T shirts bag, and unpacking is super easy because it's just you just pull out three or four bags and you're unpacked. So I'm team packing cubes.

Margaret Apolls (24:22): This is like, you're speaking a completely foreign language to me, and I just wanna say you can do it the other way, which is just throw all the crap in a bag and figure it out when you get there. Another option. I'm not saying it's a good option, but if this doesn't appeal to you, I have gone on 400 trips in just my chaotic evil way of just throwing everything in, and I bring, like, four sweaters because I wanna decide when I get there, not today, what I'm gonna wear. And I bring a giant bag, and I pack it. And it does depend too about being somewhere.

Amy Wilson (24:57): Like, you were saying, like, oh, I forgot shoes. Whatever. I'll run to the DSW and get shoes. You have to be somewhere where that can happen. And I have thought about that because we've talked about that in the past.

Amy Wilson (25:06): I'm like, okay. I guess I can let go of open your suitcase and show me that you remembered toothpaste if we are somewhere we can get toothpaste?

Margaret Apolls (25:15): Well, one thing I think is important that we do do is we make a list of absolutes. Like, these are the things when you get there, if you don't have, are going to kind of ruin the trip. So a bathing suit, if you're going somewhere water based. I had a child once who got to vacation with no shoes. I mean, no shoes.

Margaret Apolls (25:34): Got in the car barefoot and hadn't packed any shoes. And I was like, this is special. Like, we can't even go. We ended up stopping. We pulled off the highway and had to go in and buy them a pair of shoes.

Margaret Apolls (25:45): Got in the car with no shoes on. I mean, that was a special special treat.

Amy Wilson (25:50): So now you know. So now next time, right, as you depart for the airport, Vic, do you have passports, chargers, and shoes?

Margaret Apolls (25:55): I'll tell you. It only happens once before I check now every time still. Does everyone have shoes on their feet? Yeah. Like, we could even suffer lunch.

Margaret Apolls (26:02): You can't even go in a restaurant without shoes on. No, sir. But I would say, like, iPads, computers, phones, medication is the biggest one. We forgot it once, and, man, is it a pain if you forget medication. I have many people in the family on medication that has, like, withdrawal symptoms if you don't take it.

Margaret Apolls (26:20): And I recently was on a trip with you where I forgot my medication. My husband had to FedEx it to me. It's a pain. Yeah. And I had set it out really carefully, and my husband said he found it, like, under the lip of the bed.

Margaret Apolls (26:31): I must have put it on the bed to put in the bag, and it fell under the bed, and then I just assumed I'd put it in. So, you know, things happen. But list of absolutes to me, it also really cuts down my anxiety. Because, like, yes, I can buy a six pack of underwear at Target most places, but I can't get the medication that my kid needs. Yes.

Unknown Speaker (26:53): And then a list. I have a

Amy Wilson (26:55): list that's the same every time, and I just print it out for stuff like charger, this, and I give it to my kids. Like, backpack should have your laptop in it and then give your passport to mom, whatever. And they most of them are annoyed and don't look at it, but I find it I think if you are that kind of person, it's relaxing to me. Like, yes. Medication crossed off because I just put it in the bag or the toiletries bag or whatever.

Margaret Apolls (27:16): I do think this is an area where, like, start early. We travel a ton and always have because we're away from family. And so we've always, since my kids were infants and three under four, traveled at least twice a year on an airplane. And the earlier you start your kids being responsible for their own packing, the better. And then you have a checklist where you're like, these are the things we absolute we have to make sure that one has two swimsuits because we're going for a week, and we're gonna spend the whole time at the pool.

Margaret Apolls (27:50): You know? Yes. We have to make sure that everyone has their medication. Like, we would just make a list of the things we absolutely need and then basically, like, pack yourselves.

Unknown Speaker (28:00): Mhmm.

Margaret Apolls (28:01): And I do have kids who get there, and they're like, I have one T shirt. And it's like, well, that's annoying. You're gonna have to wash it every single night. That sounds annoying. I bet next time you're gonna remember to pack four.

Amy Wilson (28:10): Jeanette says when her kids were very small, she would ship stuff ahead going to a hotel, like diapers, baby snacks, and she says a new Hot Wheels set for the kids to play with in the hotel room, which is a secondary really good idea, isn't it? The new toy for the hotel room, I mean, it sounds tweet tweet, but that's fantastic. Instead of a hotel room with nothing to do except jump on the bed, a hotel room with a new Hot Wheels set to play with is gonna buy you all of this. Unpacking time is going to buy you, like, how about we take them back into the air conditioning for a while because we're melting down? It's a great idea.

Amy Wilson (28:44): And then she says she could just take it apart and bring it home with them, and, of course, the diapers and wipes were used up. That's a great idea.

Margaret Apolls (28:50): Yeah. That's smart. It's organized, but it's smart. Mary says, I tried to do

Amy Wilson (28:55): this when the kids are little or when we're going to somewhere that has, like, a beachy thing. Everybody give me your outfit. Because, you know, you get to the hotel sometimes, and it's, like, 11:30 in the morning, and they're like, we'll check-in 4PM, and your room will be ready at 4PM. And then there you are in the lobby, like, unzipping your giant suitcase and digging around for hopefully some flip flops. Like, if you can plan ahead and have a carry on, it's like, I need everybody's flip flops and bathing suit and, like, your book or your iPad or whatever, and then that's your, like, go bag for when you get there.

Amy Wilson (29:24): Smart.

Margaret Apolls (29:24): And it's smart to have in case the luggage does get lost. Like, the one outfit. Right. If you're going in February from New York to Florida, like, okay. Everybody put in one we'll have a carry on that has one outfit for everybody so that you don't get there.

Margaret Apolls (29:40): That's how I was in a room by walking around in, like, a sweater and, like, furry boots. Not great.

Amy Wilson (29:45): I have done that, the one outfit for everybody. Carry on thing. It's useful. Courtney Courtney's hardcore. She says she travels with blackout curtains so everybody sleeps in.

Margaret Apolls (29:53): I mean, that's bonkers. I love it for you, Courtney, if it works.

Unknown Speaker (29:58): I am such a late sleeper. I would do the I mean, for, like, a baby, I would

Margaret Apolls (30:01): I might consider doing this. I definitely, when my kids were little, retrofitted my parents' house. Like, I went and bought blackout curtains. They had a kind of modern ish house that had those weird high, like, triangular windows at the top and stuff, and I just basically went out and got blackout fabric and nailed it up over those windows. And it was funny because it, of course, was still there when my kids were, like, you know, 12 years old.

Margaret Apolls (30:27): I was like, I think we could take this down now. But traveling with blackout curtains is intense.

Amy Wilson (30:32): I mean, I love I swear by, eye shades. Like, I sleep so much better with those now.

Margaret Apolls (30:37): Yeah. My sensitive people just wear masks. Although you take them off.

Amy Wilson (30:42): See, my spouse says, like, I want to. He's being woken up by the early mornings these days, and he's like, I'm like, just wear the eye shade. He says he does, but then no matter what, he's taking it off in his sleep at some point. Oh. So now you need mittens too.

Unknown Speaker (30:54): It's a thing and a thing.

Margaret Apolls (30:55): He needs to wear a straight jacket and an eye mask.

Unknown Speaker (30:58): Yeah. Just just so he can sleep till eight instead of seven.

Unknown Speaker (31:00): Mary says, for those of you

Amy Wilson (31:02): who are germaphobe leaning, I also pack a spray bottle of rubbing alcohol. And so when she gets to the hotel, she sprays the toilet and the bathtub surfaces, which, I mean, now that I've heard that that's something you can do, I might consider it.

Unknown Speaker (31:14): You're you're like, I will add that to my list.

Amy Wilson (31:17): I have seen people do that get down on the airplane too and do that to the tray table, which, again, like, once you see it, it's like, that is, you're right. That is definitely an absolutely disgusting surface that I'm putting my food on.

Margaret Apolls (31:27): I just travel, and I'm like, come on, immune system. We got this, baby. We got a lot to face, and we're gonna do it. Alright. We'll be back with even more travel tips.

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Margaret Apolls (32:26): And now, things you don't wanna hear from your kids while on vacation.

Unknown Speaker (32:31): This hotel room smells like pee. Mommy, there's something itchy in my hair. I've a Saunders singer for you on our road trip. It's about diarrhea. Where's my suitcase?

Unknown Speaker (32:44): Swimming the man, it's swelling up real big. You were right about not packing those candy bars in my suitcase. Everything is so sticky. Are you telling me that there is no pool in this hotel? We forgot the iPad.

Unknown Speaker (32:59): Wait. Was I supposed to bring underwear? Mommy, I feel hot and cold at the same time. Ew, what's on the pool? He's touching my side of the seat.

Unknown Speaker (33:11): How much longer?

Unknown Speaker (33:13): I am definitely gonna hurl. My smell throw up.

Margaret Apolls (33:22): Amy, I wanna revisit my recent fresh take with Anna Fader and Emilia Eigerman from mommy poppins, and they wrote a book called the young traveler's journal and activity book. And this is one of those books that I was like, I wish I had had this when my kids were younger. I so recommend it. One of the things I really like about it is it's a lot of prep for travel, and it really acknowledges Anna was talking about how she had a kid. She almost wrote a book called travels with grumpy about her child who really hated to travel.

Margaret Apolls (33:56): And this book, it's a journal that the kids fill out, and it's an activity book for while they're traveling. But what I love about it is that a lot of it is acknowledging what are you looking forward to, but also what are you worried about? How do you feel about traveling? Are you excited to travel, or are you dreading traveling, or are you frightened of traveling?

Amy Wilson (34:18): This is just like what I was saying to do with your spouse about, like, I have this thing about I really need to, like or, like, I think we have a problem around when it's dinnertime when we don't know where we're gonna go for dinner, and then it takes us an hour to figure it out. Let's fix that, to have a talk with

Margaret Apolls (34:30): your kid about it too. Talk with your kids about expectations and allow. I think the biggest I will stand by this statement. The biggest problem with travel with kids is managing expectations, and it's the classic, like, Disney World. We've invested thousands and thousands of dollars.

Margaret Apolls (34:50): We've saved for three years. We're going because it's going to be the most magical experience of our lives, and we're bringing the grandparents because they wanna see the magic. And then you get there, and the kids are miserable. And then everyone's miserable because we have not managed expectations well. It may be great or it may be bad, but it's almost certainly gonna have moments of greatness and terribleness.

Margaret Apolls (35:17): And that if we don't allow for that, it's going to be much more terrible than it needs to be.

Amy Wilson (35:23): It's continuing to work in your expectations once you're there. It's not just that your expectations ahead of time may have been, like, excessively gauzy, But then also once you're there, reracking has to happen on the fly, don't you think?

Margaret Apolls (35:35): Absolutely. And there's a lot of sunken cost fallacy. Like, we spent the money, and now I will drag this screaming four year old who's terrified of people in costume through this experience come hell or high water. And I used the example on another podcast about going to Paris with my kids. I took them for our first overseas trip, our only time we've traveled overseas with the kids, and it's Paris.

Margaret Apolls (36:01): And we're gonna see the Louvre and the Eiffel Tower and all this stuff. And then at some point, we're on the touristy bus that goes around and shows you the sights, and we passed a stranger things pop up store. This was, like, the height of stranger things. And my kids were dying to go. And we got off the bus, and we went, and they remember it as one of their favorite memories from the trip.

Margaret Apolls (36:21): And I needed my husband there with me, and we had run-in to, oddly, another couple from our town, and we all went. And it was the other adults who were really like, they really wanna go. You know, it's their trip too. And so my, like, joyless need to check off the Arc De Triomphe was undercut by, like, we're actually going to the Stranger Things store. But I think really letting kids have a voice of, like, what do you wanna see if we go to Paris?

Margaret Apolls (36:48): So what are you looking forward to? I had a kid the night before who ended up in tears, very worried. I'm really afraid that I won't be able to eat the food. I'm really, really afraid that I won't find anything to eat. And that came out cheerfully twelve hours before we were supposed to get on the plane.

Margaret Apolls (37:05): I don't wanna go. And I could have really avoided some of that by sitting the kids down one night just at dinner and saying, what are we looking forward to? What I ended up saying to my kid is, I'll pack peanut butter and bread. And, like, you can have a peanut butter sandwich all day every day. I don't care that you eat the food.

Margaret Apolls (37:21): That's not part of the experience. Right. That's fixable. And then it was really funny because we got a cab from the airport. We pulled up to our our hotel, and directly across from our hotel was a McDonald's.

Margaret Apolls (37:32): And I was like, okay. Go eat Mc you can have a quarter pounder every single day. I don't care. He ended up, I think, partly because we undercut that fear, really trying a lot of new foods and really enjoying the food. And but he's not a kid who's like, oh, a frogmage crepe sounds amazing.

Margaret Apolls (37:50): You know? Two of my kids would love that. But allowing kids to have a voice, not like your child gets to pick the destination and you have to only go to, you know, merry romp land forever because that's where the kid wants to go, but letting them have a say. And I think using this book, the young traveler's journal and activity book from mommy Poppins, I really was such a fan of it. Like, oh, this is just a great way to have a conversation about all the things that are involved in travel and how it may go.

Amy Wilson (38:21): I wanna give one caveat for the peanut butter thing because I have done that. I've traveled with the bread and peanut butter and the picky eater. You can't check a bag. It was I had a small I a thing of peanut butter, and but it was more than three ounces. Right?

Amy Wilson (38:35): And there I was.

Margaret Apolls (38:35): No. No. No. You gotta check a bag for that. I was fighting with the TSA about whether peanut butter is liquid.

Unknown Speaker (38:41): They say it is. It is. It's liquid enough. Yeah. You can't travel.

Unknown Speaker (38:45): So you have to check a bag. Yeah. So that out went the peanut butter.

Margaret Apolls (38:47): Same with your alcohol spray bottle, though, Amy. You're gonna have to check that thing.

Amy Wilson (38:50): Oh, shoot. Tiny one. Yeah. So that was, like, even worse. So here it was like, don't worry.

Amy Wilson (38:55): We'll bring peanut butter and bread, and you and then my kid at the TSA had to watch, like, the precious lifesaving device being thrown out. Yeah. Like, there's

Margaret Apolls (39:04): more peanut butter where we're going. You can buy it most places. It's not as popular in some places. But yeah. But there were ways I mean, just seems

Amy Wilson (39:11): to me like, yes. This kid would be upset. We actually had a listener in the Facebook group just in the last couple of weeks say, like, help everybody. I'm at Disney World with my five year old. They're melting down.

Amy Wilson (39:21): I know that I have to, like, lower my expectations, and it won't all be Wonderland. But seriously, what's going on? And everybody had such good advice, so I'll link to that in the show notes too. But it made me wonder reading it. The one thing that hadn't been suggested was when was the last time this kid pooped?

Amy Wilson (39:37): And it really is something that I kinda clock. You know? And then and not just in the kids. When you travel, you are off your sleep. You're not eating and a kid, a four or five year old who hasn't pooped right for a couple of days is going

Margaret Apolls (39:52): Is not feeling good.

Amy Wilson (39:53): Is not feeling right and isn't gonna be like, you know what? I haven't I need more bran cereal. Like, they're just not that's not gonna occur to them. It might not occur to you and yet, like, that bit of schedule. So I really do and sometimes, like, people's bodies just shut down when they travel, Speaking from experience, like, it just doesn't go that well when you travel.

Amy Wilson (40:10): And so it's worth it to have an honest conversation with your kids about, like, let's try to get back to one before we leave tomorrow morning so at least everybody's leaving with a clean start instead of, you know, three or four days behind, and then your body's gonna stop working.

Margaret Apolls (40:23): Yeah. I think really leaving room for that was a disaster, and we're not all stressed. Like, kids can pick up on the fact that there are four adults staring at them at merry fun land waiting for them to have the time of their life, and it doesn't always go great. And so I think that finding ways and I also think it's really fine to say, you wanna go to stranger thing land, but I wanna see the Venus de Milo. And so we're gonna do both of those things.

Margaret Apolls (40:56): And I'm not going to complain at stranger things land, and you are not going to complain in the line to see the Venus de Milo. And just taking some of the stress out of expectations and realizing that, yes, you spent a lot of money, and you saved for a year, and you brought your kids to Paris, and it was supposed to be magical, but that don't let the pressure of those expectations junk the whole trip. You know? And sometimes with older kids, I think there can be this pressure to, like,

Amy Wilson (41:28): we have to make it super fun. They won't wanna just sit around the hotel. So every day has to be some activity, some field trip, or we're gonna go canoeing. And then the morning of canoeing comes and it's raining, or you just got there yesterday and there's a time change and they're exhausted. And I think you can overplan for kids too thinking that kids need to be kept busy.

Amy Wilson (41:47): And I think that I've had more success sort of pushing back against that. Or at least there's one busy day followed by one super chill day followed by one busy day. Or that just because you planned a family canoeing trip, if one of the kids hasn't pooped and needs a quiet afternoon with their storybooks, then not everybody has to go.

Margaret Apolls (42:07): That is really crucial, I think, in a family is that we don't have to lock hands the whole time and do everything together. When we got off the bus to go to the Stranger Things store, the grandparents stayed on the bus because they would have rather seen the sights of Paris and then got back to the hotel

Unknown Speaker (42:23): and took

Margaret Apolls (42:24): a break. You know? Like, good call. I also think, yeah, that feeling of, oh my gosh. We're only gonna be here once, so we have to do every single thing and see everything is to be resisted at all costs.

Margaret Apolls (42:37): That, like, playing Frisbee in a park where you're looking at the Eiffel Tower is very magical, and your kids are just playing Frisbee. You know? Or they're just playing on the playground, and the other kids are speaking French. That's incredible. It's a great experience.

Margaret Apolls (42:51): It doesn't always have to be, like, helicopter tour dipping over Notre Dame to see Paris. You know? Or even to be in we went to Boston at the end of the pandemic because, like, our first ability to travel. We drove there, and we spent a full day just in a park. And, like, they were meeting kids and playing with them and being like, why you go to school in Boston?

Margaret Apolls (43:12): It seemed really cool to them to just be meeting kids from Boston. And, you know, one of the things that my kid talks the most about in traveling to Paris is, like, just seeing little French kids and being like, remember that kid? We saw one kid who was actually British, and he he was playing checkers with his mom. And it kept being like, good job, mommy. And it was adorable.

Amy Wilson (43:36): Mara, one of our listeners, has this tip that I thought was really good for planning the day. She says when they travel, every day has three day parts. After breakfast, after lunch, after dinner, each day, two of those blocks have an activity, and the third is downtime.

Margaret Apolls (43:50): Love that. Love that. Isn't that a good one?

Amy Wilson (43:52): And that's something that kids could really understand. Like, today, after lunch is downtime. Tomorrow, after breakfast is downtime, we're gonna swim at the hotel, and we're gonna go to the park after lunch tomorrow.

Margaret Apolls (44:01): The traveler's journal from mommy Poppins has that too. And if you have kids on the spectrum, ADD, any other issues, Sometimes if you're used to using a visual schedule at home, which is like pictures of what you're gonna do all day, it helps all kids. It's my whiteboard. Like, this is what we're gonna eat every day. This is traveling makes everybody anxious, and it really makes kids anxious.

Margaret Apolls (44:29): And often, we're like, well, they're just along for the ride. What do they care? There are definitely kids who are like, tonight, we're gonna eat this, and there's gonna be these options. And if you don't like it, you can just eat bread. And I have the peanut butter in my bag because I checked it or whatever it is.

Margaret Apolls (44:44): This is what it's gonna look like. This is how much. And I find I just was laughing because my kids still do this, and it drives me crazy. How long until the plane is ready to go? I'm like, oh, I don't did I get a job as an airline mechanic before that I didn't tell you about?

Margaret Apolls (44:58): Like, I don't know how long the plane is gonna take to refuel when they told it's gonna refuel. But your kids are looking to you because they're anxious, and they need reassurance. So I don't know. Let's see if we can find out. Or, hey.

Margaret Apolls (45:11): Let's set a timer for half an hour. And if it hasn't happened by then, let's ask somebody how long it usually takes or whatever that I get very dismissive of that with my kids of, like, oh my god. I don't run France. How will I know how long this sandwich is gonna take? But trying to be really patient with my kids when they're traveling and realizing that the behavior is communication, and usually what they're communicating is nervousness.

Unknown Speaker (45:37): Are we okay? Is this good? Is this gonna be fun? Am I gonna be bored?

Amy Wilson (45:42): Right. And when they look at your face, will this be fun? They just said we're gonna refuel. We're heading back to the gate to deice. They do.

Amy Wilson (45:51): They look at you to be like, is our vacation ruined, or are we good?

Margaret Apolls (45:56): Yeah. And I think you can give lots of language around. Like, this is fun. This is learning. This is something for mom.

Margaret Apolls (46:02): This is the visit to mom's relatives who she's never met before. There are different categories of things we're doing in travel, and sometimes the expectation is like, this is gonna be fun. And it's like, well, it's not fun. I have to poop, or I don't like the weird relative, or I'm scared to go on this high tower, or I don't know what I'm gonna eat. And I think lots of communication is the key to happiness when traveling.

Unknown Speaker (46:28): Okay.

Amy Wilson (46:28): I like that. I like that. I'm gonna be even more precommunicative. Thank you. About potential trouble spots.

Margaret Apolls (46:36): Love that. Love that for me. Well, we're gonna link to our episode of mommy Poppins, the young traveler's journal and activity book. And you can find, did you know this, all the books we've ever recommended on this podcast at our bookshop.org. Yeah.

Margaret Apolls (46:50): Go to bookshop.org and search what fresh help podcast for books from all of our guests throughout the years. One stop shopping. And plus, there's books that you

Amy Wilson (47:00): and I like, we finish a book and we really love it, we add it to there. I just realized I have to put the god of the woods on there, which I really enjoy.

Margaret Apolls (47:05): Oh, I have that on my list because you recommended it.

Unknown Speaker (47:07): Me a loved list. It's on that list.

Margaret Apolls (47:09): Check out our bookshop friends. And with that, we will talk to you next time. So long.

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